Sarrene
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1#
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Rank:none
Score:3241
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Registered:01/13/2003
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(Date Posted:03/30/2007 1:59 PM)
The entire thread, and my responce can be found HERE Or read below.
Please respond with your thoughts and ideas.
Re: Death Mechanic Changes - Feedback Thread
I am another that has created an account just to respond. I may as well give fair warning now. This will be long, and my spelling is atrocious. I have not yet had my first cup of coffee. I have been on the test server and will do so more in the future. Players testing and giving feed back is the best way to get our voice heard. I have to say I am not happy with this at all. This is not a good change in my opinion and realy realy realy hope it does not go live. Did I mention "realy" yet? Hardcore vs Casual
Also for the one that is complaining and being totaly negitive, I also am a casual gamer. I have a family, kids and work that I do. My husband works about 45-60 hours a week. Netiher of us are hard core raiders nor any other form of hard core.
Our guild is not hard core. In fact its a very relaxed casual guild. A guilkd of people that work, that are in the military, that have families and go to college. No one has had anything good to say about this, and hope it does not go live. None of us are what you would call hard core.
I also do not see this being an issue on these boards or anywhere else stating they are hard core. In fact most (not all) of the responces I have seen on several boards are all casual players.
Myself, I 99% of the time solo or duo. I am not a raider, I am not a hard core player. I do however like the system the way it is. When I die, and I do a lot of that even on my level 24, I get my corps 99% of the time. When I know its too difficult, I do use the alters. There have been a few times I have died from me being stupid and exploring some of the great areas in the game and find myself in over my head. Do I go in and die several times knowing its too difficult? Nope, I summon and move on. However, On that note, there have been only a hand full of times I have NOT been able to get my corpse. Other then going into a dungeon i should not have, or falling off a clift into some mean minotaurs (sp). I have been able to get my body and gear back if I am outside. /tombstone is your friend when its being camped. Yes, I have had that happen to me. Topic at hand
I think the system is good just the way it is. When they added in the alters in beta, I tried them out. I loved them, it was a nice choice for when things get rough, or you know you cannot go back to get your gear. I do not think this is turning into a wow clone, however I do see the simularities to what DAoC has become.
The experience is the same as is you summon your corpse from what I hear. Okay, understandable. And you gain that back if you retrieve your essence. Okay, I understand that also. However, the change I see here, is that it is going to bring about a whole new issue.
Suiciding
People "ciding" out. Suicide runs are something very very common in DAoC. Most people do this to leave a group, or to go back to town to sell, or to just leave the area to find somewhere else. Yes there is exp loss, however there is no item loss, no reasion to go back to your tombstone. At one time, DAoC had a reasion to go back. Gain back that exp. However, it became apparent fairly fast that one did not have to. Kill some mobs, do a quest and you have your exp back. No real risk there. I see the same thing happening here.
Current bugs and petitions
I have to agree, if people are loosing out on items (I do not know one person that has lost items from corpse, but I am sure it happens) then this is an internal matter that needs to be looked at. There must be some scripts that are conflicting with another. Perhaps some items do not have the porper tags, or there is a tag missing in the script that causes these said items to get lost upon corpse retrieval. What ever the reasion, this aught to be looked at and fixed, not finding a new way around. As another poster said, this will only bring about new bugs to figure out and fix. Bugs are common anytime you introduce new scripts. Not everything is forseeable, and only live play will bring them out. However, why change something that I see across all the boards that 99% of the poeple do not want changed? I would think this, froma developing standpoint, would only cause more work in the end.
Petitions
It was stated that beause of the current bugs was one of the reasions that you were changing the system. What about finding a way to handle the corpse item loss/fears/lack of knowledge another way. Pehaps a seperate ticket that it prioritized in a different fasion so those with "legitimate" petitions can still be addressed, and the frivilous ones such as "I dont want to loose exp summoning" tickets can be set aside for when ever someone has time?
Time sinks
I can see these going out the window with the corpse runs. This was one issue you as a developer team wanted to have. Something to keep people in the game for a long time, to keep them playing and keep the adventure going. If you take out the current system, I see the issue listed above (suicide runs/deaths) becoming more popular. If someone finds they are in an area too difficult, they can cide out and find another place. The exp gain is faster as it is set now, to "cide" out and hunt else where. Faster then it is to run back to recover your essence.
Grouping issues
It was also stated by the developing team, and requested by the majority of players, to have a better system to find groups. Be it for a quest, to just grind to that next level or to do a full group plus raid. If you are making it easer, with out the risk or fun of getting your items back (or summon at an alter) Then groups will be more difficult to find and aquire.
Why would this cause grouping to be more difficult? Because, there will not be a need nor fear of lost items. Some players are going to find they can solo a lot easer then it already is. Those players that are difficult to group with in pug's (pick up groups) will leave more readily with out a word and not worry about their gear. This has only happened to me once, however, I have heard and seen this happen to many people. Not just in this game already, but in others as well. I am lucky in a lot of ways, but not everyone is. I also do not mind solo play. I usualy solo unless someone needs help and asks to join me. Be it from the guild or just some random person in the area.
Group wipes will become more frequent as the risk involved will not be there. And people leaving a group (again either because they wiped/died or because they decided to cide out) will become more prevelent.
The above statements I have made are only predictions and my own thoughts of course. However I have seen this happen in many games. DAoC being one of them. That is a game that has turned into a solo/buff bot game with the only goal is for RvR. The rvr is good, however, in the changes they had made, no one wanted to group, do raids or quest. In the end, DAoC now has eliminated the need to group at all other then getting power leveld. You can now purchess in game your Master level raids, your Artifact gear, your books and scrolls. The community has changed a LOT since it was first releaced. The game itself has changed from a small sandbox (choice of what you wanted to do) into nothing more then a PvP game on all the servers. RvR is the goal now, nothing more. No more raids, no more quest groups, and very very little role play on the rp servers. I can see something simular happening here in time if this is implemented.
Two Boxing
This is something that was brought up to me by a few people in and out of my guild. With this change, it will encurage people to two box more often then it will encurage them to group. Two boxing (or bot account as its refered to in DAoC) is not a bad thing in its own right. However, as it has been seen in many games from SWG to DAoC, it does limit the grouping capability. It will cause more of a trend then what I believe you might like. In the future, and in the past
Once you make this change on the live servers, there will be no going back. Remember when you first added in the alters and summoning your corps? the out cry it caused amoung the real hardcore people? Okay, that was rought, for sure. And did cause a lot of debates. Now remember when you took the ability to summon back out again? The outcry was even more so. Not from one set of people, but from all. There was no way to reverse that desission with out loosing a lot of credibility.
If you do something like this, changing the corpse/tombstone to the essence runs you propose in this patch, there will be no going back. What is going to prevent more issues from popping up, and having to simplify something else because of those? Then there shall be more, and once again, another change will have to be applied. This is a dangerous change to not just the players enjoyment, but to the fundimental of the game itself. Eventualy, if this dangerous path is taken (with this curent issue or others in the future) then there will be no turning back, and eventualy Vanguard will not be the vision it was ment to be.
Challenge and outcry
Challenge verces rewards is one thing. And yes, it is a lot of fun for most people. However, one has to realise that a majority of time, that the loudest people that cry about things such as "I dont want to loose the exp from summoning my corpse" Are the ones that are heard the most. It does not mean it is the majority. I am saddened that some of you may have heard these outcrys and have actualy seen a need to address that as a potential issue.
As you can see here, and I did check those pcharacter profiles I was able to on the vgplayers, the ones that are now giving this outcry are not just kids, are not just people that have tons of free time, but players that span across the board in play styles and play avalibility. I realy hope that you will take a look at this and see that this is something that we are fairly unified in. With exception to one that has complained about everything from day one. I do see that a few are open to the idea, and they have spoken their reasions in a nice and polite manor.
Remember, the squeeky wheel get the oil. Let us hope this time, it will be benificial for the majority of players.
These are only my own thoughts and observations from many years of playing games. It is also what I have observed in Vanuard as well. Things are difficult enough, and it is fun at the same time. Yet there are some issues that aught to be looked at instead of making this change in my opinion.
- Creating a more unified way to find groups
- Creating insentive to group more often and stick with it.- Exp gain, loot options etc.
- Fixing any current bugs involved in corpse retrieval/item loss
- and many more I cannot think of at this time.
These things listed above will make more people happier then changing the type of death penelty. Just my 2?worth, I know its long, however, I pray the developing team does take a look at some of what i said, as well as listen to what others have to say. I may not be right or correct, since these are my interpetatinos of what I have seen in games in the past, and what I see happening now in Vanguard. In closingDo not get me wrong.. I love this game a lot! I have been a supporter of vanugard and the developing team in thick and thin. I have posted my thoughts on bugs myself or others have experienced, but stayed happy and have realy enjoyed the game a lot. I want to continue to enjoy the game. The different feel it has from other games, the simularities it has with others. The old home feelling that is present now, I hope stays. Please do not change the current death system. Just fix the issues that are present it in. Peace, Sarrene'
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The only real mistake is the one from which we learn nothing.
Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities. -Ayn Rand
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zorbis
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2#
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Rank:none
Score:325
Posts:325
Registered:01/15/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:03/31/2007 12:40 AM)
Having read thru both of Sarrene's posts in full I have to aggree in concurrence with Sarrene that there is no need to try and change the current death process to the proposed new version concerning essence . As she points out there have been variousd attempts to address this problem with varying degrees of success in other games ranging from Diablo through to the various games available today and there have always been arguements depending on various players points of view .
Unfortunately today , everybody is focussing on EXP as a means to develop a death process - this is the wrong approach as the EXP is also used to control level , and thus we have conflicting concepts .
The only way I can see to sort this out is to add in a 'combat effectiveness' component into the game . The combact effectiveness component could be applicable on a minute by minute basis for example .
FOR EXAMPLE
Under normal play the 'effectiveness component would be 100% .
damage dealt would be 100% of the calculated damge
You die once and you are given a effective component of 90%
Damage dealt would be 90% of the calculated damage
if you do a corpse recovery then the effective component could be increased by 3% say
(to max of 100%) i.e.
damage dealt would be 93 % of total damage
Finally the damge effectiveness could be increased by 1% per minute until it reached 100%
advantages
you can now level as normal even tho you are inhibited each time you die
You can carry on , die again , taking a 2nd death penalty and reduce your effectiveness by another 10% to 80% or you can rest for 10 minutes to regain effectiveness the choice is yours
this kind of thing could also be applied to crafting, harvesting and anything else that may be relevant .
There is no need for a 'loss of equipment' penalty
This whole process could be handled as a buff .
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"Tetht the printhiple, tetht the printhiple," muttered Igor.
"Thorry, thur, but Igorth do not "tetht the printhiple".
Thtrap it to the bench and put a
good thick bolt of lightning through it, thatth our motto.
Thatth how you tetht thomething
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Sarrene
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3#
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Rank:none
Score:3241
Posts:3241
Registered:01/13/2003
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(Date Posted:03/31/2007 1:05 AM)
I still stand by the same feelings I had. Changing it at this point is not a good idea. There are too many doors that this could lead to. And not just what I have listed already today..
Aye, I have responded to that post as well. On the VN and on the other forum.....
And I do not belive this is an issue of hardcore vs casual. This is not the issue at hand. As one of my guildies whom is as casual as you can get said, (1-2 hours at the most per week) "Hell no, they better not." The issue is about game machanics and how it is played/recieved. There are other issues that are more important, and could/would fix the issues that were addressed by one of the devs.
The first one is HERE ON THE VN in an earler thread that was started early this morning.
Current issues and work arounds:
And in another post addressing the bugs in the current system I addressed the issues I think would be more appropriate to both help sort out this problem of CS over load. Listed below are a few of the most important things I can think of that would increase playability and help those enjoy the game much more. I do not have many bugs at all, I am lucky in that manor. However they are present and it does happen. Here are a few things that would help better, in my opinion then the new death sequence on the test server.
1) Creating a more unified way to find groups
2) Creating insentive to group more often and stick with it.- Exp gain, loot options etc.
3) Fixing any current bugs involved in corpse retrieval/item loss
4) and many more I cannot think of at this time.
There are also other options to the issue of over worked CS people as well. Some of them can be worked out by fixing the current bugs that hit some people.
Second, they can create a tag for those /bug and /petition's they get and have someone review them to see if they are realistic or just someone lazy or confused- (i.e. "they don't want to summon their corpse because they will lose exp") Also as one person made note of.. have a message at these /bugs/petitions of this sort give a notice that lost items are not retirevable. Most of the time items can be replaced fairly easily. If it is one of these UBER items, or great player made item that someone does not want to risk loosing, they usualy tend to soul bind them. But somehowe, give notice at some point of the game that lost items will not be refunded. Perhaps in the pop up that I sugested?
Issues on the test server now:
There are more bugs on the test server. It reminds me of when they first added in the alters.. And then again when they tested out removing the ability to summon. Yes, there was outcry, yet I think they choose the right option. And that is what they gave us, options. With this new proposial, it takes away the options and creates more potential for abuse from other players, more bugs that will be current (mostly unforseen bugs i am sure) And still keep the same load on the CS people.
At this time, we have
1) missing Essences/ unable to target essence (Stuck inside the world possibly?)
2) Inability to retrieve essence (exp)
3) the usual bugs still present in game
4) sure there are more I have not seen yet
In respond to the "confused player"
How about this as one of many options?
As far as players being confused about how to use alters, recover corpse and retrieval after 7 days, there is a simple answer to that. Give a nice pop up for someone to read explaining their options and what happens.
I know I am one whom has ahabit of just closing out pop ups like this. So there is another viable option. Create one where they first see:
ATTENTION: DEATH EXPLAINED PLEASE READ
The player will have to scroll down to the bottom to close it out.
Set this for first time deaths for player from level 1-6, and once more at first time death at level 7.
It may sound like a lot of new programing I am sure. However that system is already in the game. First time you find a new item, a /use item, or gain a new skill/ability in crafting. The same thing can be enabled for death explination as well, by using the current system and the scripts in game already. It is just a matter of creating a new "tag" to match up with the new action that one creats.
I am sure there are other work arounds also to get players to read about dieing and corpse retrieval. I could come up with a few options to help educate the newer players so they cannot be confused. Yet I am only working on my second cup of cofee.. so it will have to wait. I know for sure many others here can probably think of other and better options. There is a way to educate the players in this or other areas of the game with out the "hand holding" some have claim. Again, this is not an issue about hardcore or casual. It is about the game and what attracted so many of us to the world that Vanguard bring us into.
Would love to see more people involved and what they have to say about it. What are your thoughts everyone? Not just on yahoo or in vent. Please post your thoughts and ideas and what your perceptions are. Remember.. you can test this out also on the test servers to give full feedback to current bugs in their new system, as well as how it works compaired to what we currently have.
Peace,
 Sarrene'
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The only real mistake is the one from which we learn nothing.
Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities. -Ayn Rand
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Poets_Dream
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4#
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Registered:06/25/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:03/31/2007 1:55 AM)
I also am at a loss of words. No poems today, no snippets of jest nor slaps of humor.
I do not like this. The times I was able to get onto the test server, it was just not the same. Having a mid level character, it was pointless. I did die several times, and despite the bugs, and not getting me essence back.. It was just like DAoC and a few other games.
Please do not change what we hve now. Points made were good ones. There are options Sigil can do instead. It is not worth the change of machanics that shall change the game play, style and as Sarrene said, FEEL of the game. It is unique right now. It has its problems. Fix those first.
Though change shall happen anyhow,
The best course may not be known.
Changing what will be from now,
The seads of end are sewn.
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Amin sinta thaliolle e dagor
I know your strength in battle.
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Ensane
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5#
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Rank:none
Score:53
Posts:53
Registered:08/05/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:03/31/2007 2:00 AM)
Thank you WoW for once again ruining a perfectly good concept of a challenging game into some mediocre and boring. If im not going to lose XP to dying ill just go reckless and not care when i solo. Cant wait for the next XP increase. Btw hope everyone is enjoying the game, some parts i like, others i dont, all in all its ok, not the greatest ever but good for now.
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Wildhighlander
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6#
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Rank:none
Score:613
Posts:613
Registered:01/13/2003
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(Date Posted:03/31/2007 2:04 AM)
I personally dont want to see anything change as far as the death Mechanics go. I like the current system and the fact that you can recover all but 1% of your exp loss doing a corpse run.
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What does it matter it"s in the past...(Rafiki from the lion king)
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Crixey
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7#
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Rank:none
Score:26
Posts:26
Registered:06/03/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:03/31/2007 1:07 PM)
Please do not change it. Its fun this way. Its different. If its changed it would be like daoc. that is not fun any more. I have fun here.
why are they changing it?
what are the problems they have with cs?
why can peps not understand?
I am 12 and do not have a problem. I like the game and i like getting my tombstones. i hope they dont change it
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Hey! I"m just a kid
Paloma II says, "Kissyfur........."
Kissyfur say, "yes?"
Paloma II says," was your mother frightened by jumping beans when she was carrying you, hon?"
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